Author Topic: Videha Mukti  (Read 4284 times)

Jairaghuveer

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Videha Mukti
« on: March 24, 2013, 10:00:16 PM »
Acharya Sadanandji Pranam

I am caught in between two concepts regarding Videhamukti.
Once JivaBrahma aikyam is established, Jiva becomes Jivanmukta. Free from sukha-dukha, jiva still experiences Jagat like other Jivas due to his prarabdhas and upadhis but with a jivanmukta attitude "I am really the parabrahma chaitanya.. all chidabhasas are reflections of ME ..everybody's knowledge is my knowledge, everybody's joy is my joy .. (only an intellectual attitude, of course, since even jnanis enjoyment falls within the scope of anthakarana he was born with)
In Videhmukti, Prarabdhas are  exhausted and then jiva sharira is said to merge in Ishwara on Vyavaharic level. On paramarthic level there is only Brahma and no such entity as Surviving Videhamukta.
With this in background, I am caught in between two concepts regarding "Videhamukti".
A. For Videhmukta, On paramarthic level there is only Parabrahma. But on Vyavaharic level, this particular jivasharira "Mohandev Sharma" merges into Ishwara - but Ishwara continues to control other ignorant jivatmas who will wait for their turns for eventual mukti and cycle goes on (at vyavaharic level). When all jivas attain mukti then there will be total maya-less brahman.
B. In Videhmukti, there is nothing but Parabrahma - there is no vyavaharic level, no jivatmas, no jagat, no Ishwar/Maya - there never was any "Mohan dev Sharna", never were other jivatmas, jagat, Ishwar or vyavaharic level (or even paramarthic level?)

B. makes more sense to me because there is a true dukkha nivratti. I was really concerned and attached to my son but now I know that neither my son nor me are and were real! All along there was only one ME the brhaman. The only problem with B is that with my jiva sharira exhaustion I have liberated the whole world – I have no problem with this because in reality there was never any world.

With A I have a problem – I have attained my videha mukti but my poor ignorant son is still suffering on the vyavaharic plane going through his prarabdha. With this thought I may never attain mukti.

I will appreciate if you could kindly shed some light on advaiti correctness of these concepts.

Pranam
Vijay

Dr. Sadananda

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Re: Videha Mukti
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 05:54:02 AM »
Vijay - PraNams
Here is my understanding:
First Jiivan mukta involves clear understanding that I am pure existence-consciousness and was never bound. jiiva jagat and iswara are all mithyaa. They become vibhuuti of either you can say my vibhuti or to be polite and say it is Iswara vibhuti since understanding is jiiva-jagat-Iswara all the three are my own projections.
Hence a jiivanmukta understands that I never had, have will have a shariira. It is like a an actor independent of any roles. Now in vyavahaara he can play the role of a particular individual knowing very well that he is playing that role as leela or play. The roles will have problems like any roles in a drama. A multi millionaire can be playing the role of a beggar and being beaten on the stage as part of drama but he knows he is never a beggar but going to earn more millions because of that action.
Hence correct answer is jiivanmukta does not have any shariira other than for the play in the drama of life. The problem of that role belongs to the role not to the one who is acting that role.
Hence he in principle does not have a deha from his understanding. indriyaaH indriyartheshu vartante.. the BMI functions as it should in response to the external stimulus. The BMI is born of praarabda and until that praarabda is exhausted it will remain. There is also a samashTi vaasanaas that keep the body alive - since there are many matured seekers who are in need of a jnaani-teacher, the prakriti under the direction of Iswara maintains that body for the benefit of loka kalyanam. The ajnaani may look at the body of jiivanmukta and spiritual seeker sees as mahatma while the others may see as burden to the society.

When the BMI of jnaani drops out the BMI that belongs to the prakRiti goes back to prakRiti since there is no need for next birth for a jnaani. Hence He who has already become one with the total remains as total. It is Brahman from the paaramaarthika and Iswara from the point of ajnaanis since jiiva-jagat-Iswara divisions are real only for ajnaani.
Now look at your A and B choices.

 ---------------------

Vijay:


Once JivaBrahma aikyam is established, Jiva becomes Jivanmukta. Free from sukha-dukha, jiva still experiences Jagat like other Jivas due to his prarabdhas and upadhis but with a jivanmukta attitude "I am really the parabrahma chaitanya.. all chidabhasas are reflections of ME ..everybody's knowledge is my knowledge, everybody's joy is my joy .. (only an intellectual attitude, of course, since even jnanis enjoyment falls within the scope of anthakarana he was born with)

Sada: He does not experience anything. He witnesses the experiences of BMI at vyaavahaarika level. There is a difference. If he firmly abides in that knowledge, then he sees all experiences at vyaavahaarika is like actor experiencing the problems of the roles. The actor is free from any problems of the roles BMI. He may be beautiful actor that he appears to be involved but he is not - if he has jnaanam that I am pure sat chit ananda.
---------------
Vijay:

In Videhmukti, Prarabdhas are  exhausted and then jiva sharira is said to merge in Ishwara on Vyavaharic level. On paramarthic level there is only Brahma and no such entity as Surviving Videhamukta.
With this in background, I am caught in between two concepts regarding "Videhamukti".

Sada:Jiivan mukta does not have praarabda also. He sees the BMI has praarabda while others may think that he has praarabda. Hence the outlook is different. In transactions he behaves as though he has praarabda - that is what a beautiful actor should do, right? Yes BMI which is a product of praaradba will remain until all that karma drops out.
---------------------
Vijay:

A. For Videhmukta, On paramarthic level there is only Parabrahma. But on Vyavaharic level, this particular jivasharira "Mohandev Sharma" merges into Ishwara - but Ishwara continues to control other ignorant jivatmas who will wait for their turns for eventual mukti and cycle goes on (at vyavaharic level). When all jivas attain mukti then there will be total maya-less brahman.

Sada: At paaramaarthika level - there is absolutely nothing else other than Brahman. No words can reach there. It is pure undifferentiated sat chit ananda - even these words is only from the point of vyavhaara. yato vaacho nivertante apraapya manasaa saha.

Even before the BMI drops he has understood that he is brahman. when the BMI drops that understanding remains. He merges with Iswara is only from others point who see the difference between jiiva-jagat-Iswara. It is their notions.
---------------
Vijay:

B. In Videhmukti, there is nothing but Parabrahma - there is no vyavaharic level, no jivatmas, no jagat, no Ishwar/Maya - there never was any "Mohan dev Sharna", never were other jivatmas, jagat, Ishwar or vyavaharic level (or even paramarthic level?)

Sada: Your first part is correct. In the second part - there is no vyavahaara also from Brahman point there is no creation. Only from Jiiva's point there is jiiva-jagat and Iswara.
----------------
Vijay:
B. makes more sense to me because there is a true dukkha nivratti. I was really concerned and attached to my son but now I know that neither my son nor me are and were real! All along there was only one ME the brhaman. The only problem with B is that with my jiva sharira exhaustion I have liberated the whole world – I have no problem with this because in reality there was never any world.


Sada: True duhkha nivRitti comes with clear understanding that I am pure sat chit ananda even when BMI are there. A jiivanmukta will do and express concerns (not worries) as required and appropriate at vyavahaara level. In fact he acts in such a way that others do follow his example. For his everything becomes a divine play and in the play there are heroes and crooks too. That is all part of drama of life. He plays what is dharma and also does creative actions since those actions will beautify the creation. That is what loka kalyanam means.

Hope this answers
Hari Om!
Sada


Jairaghuveer

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Re: Videha Mukti
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2013, 03:54:48 PM »
Acharya Sadanandji Pranam
As ajnani, I think I am BMI, I am a father, son, husband, friend ................... I experience the world that has real mountains, rivers, trees, other people that are my friends, relatives, enemies..........
Then I acquire jnanam thru mu guru. As a jnani, now I know that I am SatChitAnanda brahma; that the world is swapnawat, mithya. I no longer experience the world but I am just a witness to the world - a world that included all of the seemingly real objects, my loved ones, enemies.... also my own BMI. I am as though an actor playing a role knowing that this is just a drama.

Upon exhaustion of BMI's prarabdhas the BMI is dissolved, the world is dissolved and "I" the SatChitAnanda has even lost its "Witnesshood", "actorhood". Aham Brahma asmi!!

My real question now is that : with my particular BMI dissolved thru brahmajnana, will Ishwara still continue his lila of utpatti, sthiti and laya with other ajnani jivas till each one of them attains mukti?

Or, am I missing the point by asking this question - the question itself disappears upon brhamajnana even as a jivan mukta leave alone videhamukta. May be the disappearing of these question is a litmus test of Jivan Mukta!!

I will appreciate if you give the appropriate solution to my question.

Pranam
Vijay

Dr. Sadananda

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Re: Videha Mukti
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 03:18:00 PM »
Vijay - look at your statements again.
As a jnaani - it is not NOW I do not experience the world -  As a jnaani I realize that I never experienced the world - all the experiences belong to the BMI only. The experiencer-experienced and experiencing all three pertains to the prakRiti only - that realization is jnaanam. I realize that I was free evern before  when I thought I was bound, I am free now and I will be ever free since none of the triad belongs to I, the sat-chit ananda swaruupa - that is the jnaanam.
I am a playing a role is also notion in the mind only. I the witnessing consciousness can never play also but now I see the play is going on at the BMI level. I can for comunication say I am playing the role while the ajnaanis sees I am involved in the action. Play at the level of BMI is common for both jnaani and ajnaani but jnaani knows it is a play while for ajnaani the play has become too serious because of he is not able to stand apart and just watch the tamaasha going on.
When BMI is gone - I remain as I am since there is nothing to witeness - I stopped being a witnessing consciousness or reflected consciousness - I am that I am - period. Saakshaym is not there for me to play the role of even a saakshii. Even before BMI is dropped I have realized that I am sat chit ananda. Like pot-space has realized even before pot is broken that I am the total space since space is undivided. That realization is there even before pot walls are broken.
Yes when BMI is gone there is not even the apparent play or as a saakshii since no saakshyam is seen or experienced since the instruments of experience are gone.
Now relating you question - that question becomes invalid for jnaani whose BMI has dropped. Iswara is there only when the world is there and world is there only when world is experienced and world is experienced only when BMI is there. I am just pure unadultarated sat chit ananda - and no worlds can reach there to describe that state or even ask any questions abou that state.
Yes you got it right - the question itself dissolved when you become a jnaani even before the drop of BMI because there is no Iswara separate from the self that I am when I recognize that aham brahmaasmi. Hence even for jnaani the world is only his own vibhuti since there is no separate Iswara.
The question will not have any relavence since BMI that asks the question itself is not there.
Litmus test for a jnaani is disapperence of all questions about jnaanam and jnaani. Litmus test for jiivan mukta is non-depedence on anything other than himself for happiness - hence Krishna says prajahaati yadaa kaamaan sarvan parth mano gataan - and he - aatmani eve aatmanaa tuShTaH - he does not depend on anything other than himself for his happiness since he has realized that he is the sources of all happiness including the reflected happiness. Hence he has no desire for anything.
Hope this helps. Back in the states now.
Hari Om!
Sada
 

Dr. Sadananda

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Re: Videha Mukti
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2013, 06:16:58 AM »
On second thought - just for clarification.

A jnaani can also say - I am experiencing everything - and also say without washing his mouth a contradictory statement - I am not experiencing anything. Krishna says - I pervade the entire universe and all beings are in Me. and yet in the very next sloka says - Nay - No beings are in Me. These contradictions are only apparent since they are made from two different stand points. one is from vyaavahaarik and the other is from paaramaarthika. Gold can say all ornaments are in Me and yet can say no ornaments are in Me since the transformation of gold into ornaments is transformationless transformation. Hence as jnaani - I can say all experieences of all beings are my experiences while each particular BMI knows only those particular experiences experienced by those particular BMIs. Yet standing apart and say all experiences belong to prakRiti and none belong to Me. I am immaculately pure and untained by any of the beings experieces - na ca aham teshu avasthitaha- I am unaffected by the beings experiences even though they are all in Me. Jnaanam involves clear understanding of all this. Hari Om! Sada

Aurobind Padiyath

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Re: Videha Mukti
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2013, 01:09:35 AM »
Hari Om, Sadaji,
Please correct me if my information is misplaced.
The ideas like Videha Mukthi and Jeevan Muthi etc. are nomenclatures used in explaining the other side of the experiencer after having crossed over, yet the questioner has no way of knowing "That state". Which essentially is only One and That is without experiences also. But the duality of me and the other who has crossed over is itself a product of Maya and hence what the Muktha-state is only an assumption. We take the Sruti for guidance and explain various ways as it can be.
So if Vijay should not be unnecessarily get worried about anything as the current images and relationships are all an effect of a longer dream-like state which has only extended validity of time span of dream-like, say a life time. What will happen to his dear one will invariably happen if he crosses over or leaves his mortal body. The only difference if we go by the Sruthi is that in the later cases he will carry his desires are sanchita karma and in the case of the previous that is just a mirage like effect without any reality.

Dr. Sadananda

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Re: Videha Mukti
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 09:56:48 AM »
Shree Aurobind - PraNAms.

Yes what you said is correct. Both jnaani and ajnani and jiivan mukta and videhamukta - all are within vyavahaara only. At the paarmaarthika level there is neither knower not known or knowing - neither jnaani nor ajnaani - it is pure unadulterated sat chit ananda - even these so-called descriptions are also from vyavahaara point since nothing can be said or need to said about or from the point of the paaramaarthika. na vaak gachhati na manaH etc.
There is some distinctions however between dream state and waking state although they are parallel. In the dream state viveka cannot be there since if that intelligence is there one cannot go to dream state. Hence one cannot realize that dream is unreal while undergoing dream experiences. On the other hand, even the waking world is somewhat similar to dream state,  a seeker in the waking state can develop the vivaka by sadhana that involves shravana manana and nidhidhyaasana. That viveka is used to differentiate the nithya and anitya - that which is eternal and that which is ephemeral in all the changing things of the world and world of experiences. That viveka includes the recognition that any suffering by any being in the waking world as Vijay is referring to is mithyaa only - not that the suffering is not there but it is only apparent and not real since anything that mithyaa will undergo change as time cures all the sufferings. Kale jagat bakshakaH - as we go into deep sleep state - no other beings are there nor their sufferings as time itself is not there. Hence a jnaani even while living in the BMI will recognize that all sufferings and pleasures are BMI level are only at transactional level and not at absolute level. Hence He shows compassion where compassion is required, anger where anger is required, all nine emotions where they are required as in the drama while one is playing. The life becomes an enjoyable divine play at the transactional level while absolute level there is nothing other than I am. Hari Om! Sada

Aurobind Padiyath

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Re: Videha Mukti
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2013, 10:32:48 AM »
Hari Om,  Thank you Sadaji.

Jairaghuveer

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Re: Videha Mukti
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2013, 11:15:21 AM »
Acharya Sadanandji  pranam
The question was: while Vijay (ex) , the Videha mukta  is liberated and merged into brahma, what happens to his beloved ones on the vyavaharic plane?
Acharya illustrated that the question is not relevant for a jnani since  for a Jivan Mukta Jnani the BMI, his beloved ones, this jagat as well as its creator are mithya and were mithya. He continues to be a witness (as opposed to an experiencer) of this jagat and then merges into brahma when the BMI is dropped upon the exhaustion of prarabhda – even the witnesshood is lost.
The problem and the confusion occurs due to terms like: Vyavaharic plane is of lower order of reality compared to Paramarthic plane; jiva crosses the vyavaharic plane into paramarthic.
Lack of clear understanding of paramarthic and vyavaharic planes  makes one think that paramarthic is a higher plane and vyavaharic  a lower one like “first class” and “economy class” in a train or plane – Once you are upgraded to a higher class, you are comfortably sitting in paramarthic plane while other miserable jivas continue to suffer in the vyavaharic plane until they get their upgrade.
Your illustration of Swapna drishtanta clears this confusion. I have tried to put together my mananam on this concept :

In my dream, there is a full-fledged universe and I believe that I am Devadatta the frog. A black snake is threatening to devour me and my beloved ones. I go to a sage for help who wakes me up from my dream and the whole drama of Devadatta, beloved ones, the snake and the sage is over. Upon waking the question  “what will happen to my beloved ones” while I am awake is irrelevant.
Similarly, in the waking state which is also Swapnavat (like a dream) I am Vijay Datta. I and my beloved ones are threatened by the Kalasarpa (misery &death). A guru woke me up thru brahmajnana where I realized that I am Sat Chit Ananda - Vijayadatta and his beloved ones and his universe and the guru are all mithya.
As you illustrated, the only difference between Swapna and Jagrat is that due to lack of Vivekshakti, in dreams one cannot realise that this universe is mithya – one has to wake up to establish the mithyahood of dreams. Thanks to the vivekshakti. I can realize that this world is mithya while I am awake.  And I don’t have to wait till I am a videha mukta.
In conclusion, the question “while I am in paramarthic plane, what will happen to my beloved ones in vyavaharic plane?” disappears upon brahma jnana.
Pranam
Vijay

Dr. Sadananda

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Re: Videha Mukti
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2013, 02:19:40 PM »
Vijay - yes your final conclusion is right - except for the fact that from paaramaarthika plance there is no vyaavahaarika plan - nay there are no planes whatsoever. Hence the question- questioner and the questioning all naama-ruupa has no relavence from that reference. There is no question of even mithyaa at from that reference.
Hari Om!
Sada